I’d noticed that some people were searching for information on ‘saving bellevue,’ so I’m not surprised to see that www.savingbellevue.com is now up and running — with 34,000 hits.
I think it’s safe to say that the dynamics of congregational disagreement have changed. Even a few years ago, it was relatively rare for the downtrodden or disgruntled to have any platform to speak to the rest of the church. It now takes about 15 minutes to set up a website that can reach the entire congregation, or more, as SavingBellevue seems to have done.
So, where it used to be risky to allow too many dissenting voices to be heard; it is often more risky now to try to stamp them out. Blogs and websites depend largely on credibility. A baseless attack will usually appear baseless — but persecution lends an air of legitimacy to the dissent. It’s Glenn Reynold’s ‘Army of Davids’ idea happening in the church. Quite frankly, if you have to jump a fence at a gated community to make an unnanounced visit to a deacon who questioned governance practices, you’ve probably crossed a line.
More reading at http://www.bellevuetruth.blogspot.com/
Mike Bratton
SavingBellevue is microscopically short on credibility. Amplifying disagreements, taking personal opinions and gossip and representing them as facts, and taking one side of a story and representing it as the unvarnished truth are never good ideas–but that mentality, unfortunately, is the raison d’etre for the site.
There’s far more to it than what you’ve mentioned, Jon.
Doris Boyd
The Lord must be grieved that you have such an un-forgiving heart. We are all prone to poor-judgment at times. Why not just PRAY for the pastor, the church leadership, the congregation, and yourself–rather than stir up dissention?
Mike
The Lord must be grieved that some bloggers have such an unforgiving heart toward Jon the Baptist. We all make poor judgments at times, and hop a few fences in gated communities, or tease those who do. Why not just pray for JTB, and yourself, and myself, rather than stir up dissention against a bloggin’ brother? He needs the prayer and we all need the practice.
But let’s also talk–and even laugh at ourselves at times– about our mistakes, in all our human frailty, especially the ones done in public, and learn not to repeat them. No doubt there is far more to the Bellevue story than Jon mentioned. Neither Jon — nor any website — has the “whole truth” on any issue. (Didn’t notice a KJV — King Jon’s Version — stamped on his frontpage. But there are some facts, short or tall, that are on the public record, and it is not “stirring up” to talk about them, or about the fact that 34,000 people have “hit” on a site. As Jon says, that fact alone indicates that a large number of people have given the site some “credibility” at least as to one viewpoint.
Or perhaps they are just curious –or concerned. I am among those who are praying for all those at Bellevue, and in churches around the world, where men and women are striving to discern God’s will about how to “be the Church” where we live. And how to live “Life Together,” as Bonhoffer put it, in spite of our differences.
Mike Bratton
Counters can say whatever their operators want them to say, if you’ll pardon me for pointing out the obvious.
And it is fallacious to presume that sheer numbers impart credibility in and of themselves; were that the case, Islam and Hinduism (as two examples) would be credible religions, would they not?
–Mike
http://thebrattonreport.blogspot.com
Anna
Honestly I was relocating to another state and was looking for a new church for my family and I to attend, then came across all of this. Very scary and sad.
Mike Bratton
Four words for you, Anna:
Don’t believe the hype.
–Mike
http://thebrattonreport.blogspot.com
Mike
I assume that Mike B. does not have evidence that the operator has inflated his count, but I assume that Mike B is generally disdainful of the operator and his ilk, therefore Mike B. distrusts everything on the site, even the hit count. I certainly agree that hitcount doesn’t equate to credibility, but may reflect curiosity or concern. (Credibility is not always synonymous with truthfulness, if you’ll forgive me for stating the obvious. A person may have a demeanor or outward characteristics which make him believeable. Mike B.’s warning to Anna assumes that the hype may be believeable, because it is hype, not because it is true.) But many, many people in America are concerned about and praying for Bellevue, and other churches having difficult times.
Keep searching and sharing the truth. Not just at SavingBellevue.com, or JonTheBaptist.com, or even thebrattonreport.blogspot.com. But its a start.
And keep sharing the truth that the great Bellevue Church has always shared: God loves you, Jesus died for you, and Heaven awaits you. Only believe. Put your faith in Jesus! And find a church family full of imperfect folks who believe the same thing, and tell the world this Good News.
handy
While it is possible the counter at saving bellevue was inflated I doubt it. The counter of the video where Steve Gaines admits to trying to “tick off” the pastor search team has over 13,000 hits. Pretty sure the youtube.com counter isn’t being inflated.
Sounds like a bad deal all around to me for the members of BBC.
I can see why people are raising questions about a pastor that will tell a member to break a 20 year habit of saying Amen, admit to (perhaps even brag about) trying to tick off a pastor search team, fire a loved choir director and hop a fence to visit (perhaps intimidate?) a member instead of picking up a phone to arrange a meeting. None of these are rumors, they are events that have been documented.
The financial aspects, well those are definitly unsettleing. Does BBC not have a stub budget like our church where every dollar spent is open to inquiry? $400 dollar dinners at Ruth Chris Steakhouse are nice, but are they routine and is that the best use of church funds?
Christa
Dr. Steve Gaines is a man of God. He Loves the Lord. Everyone needs to just wake up and realize that this is the devil trying to invade on a God thing but in the end The Lord Jesus Christ will win………
Mike Bratton
“Perhaps” is a fun little word, isn’t it? It makes it so easy to attribute motive to people we don’t know well, and in some cases have never even met.
If you don’t know the particulars about when and where an individual chose to say “Amen” in a service, about the process Pastor Gaines went through to accept the pastorate at Bellevue, about the timing of the departure of the Minister of Music Emeritus, and/or about the “fence” nonsense, you’re just slinging opinions around.
And that’s a large part of what caused this “Saving Bellevue” stew to bubble up in the first place: Disgruntled members who hold their own opinions in too-high esteem, and will sling them around and about at a momen’t notice.
–Mike
http://thebrattonreport.blogspot.com
handy
>>>“Perhaps†is a fun little word, isn’t it? It makes it so easy to attribute motive to people we don’t know well, and in some cases have never even met.
I guess you watched the same video I did. You don’t think it is possible he was bragging about trying to “tick off” the search committee? If it is possible he was bragging then the word perhaps is entirely appropriate.
Look at the context of his comments. In the same speech he boasts of going up to BBC and telling them all the things they do wrong that his church does right. On further review I concede the word perhaps was inappropriate in this sentence…he was DEFINITLY bragging.
Perhaps (that nasty word again) you don’t see anything wrong or possibly intimidating about hopping a fence to visit a guy you know disagrees with you and bringing along three friends in lieu of calling first. I think it is possible an unannounced visit was designed to surprise and intimidate. IF I was positive either way I wouldn’t have said perhaps.
KAY
WHILE I CERTAINLY DON’T KNOW ALL THE DETAILS,PERSONALLY SPEAKING,I WOULD NEVER PUT MY TRUST IN JESSIE McCLERKIN.LETS JUST SAY I KNOW TOO MUCH.
Chris
Why is that all the people who are in denial that things aren’t perfect at Bellevue, seem to have the attitude that we people who are concern should just pray and not stir/shake the boat. Have you ever thought that we have prayed and prayed and now God has given us permission to stand and not ignore or play as though all is well?
By the Way God will work it out, but most often he uses men/women to do his foot or hand work, after all if he didn’t use us to do his work we wouldn’t have to remain here after we got saved and certainly He wouldn’t have called us hi Workman.
Don’t just Pray, Work for the Masters best interest.
His son, Your Brother Chris M.
Mike Bratton
“Why is that all the people who are in denial that things aren’t perfect at Bellevue, seem to have the attitude that we people who are concern should just pray and not stir/shake the boat.”
You attribute motive where you probably shouldn’t. For example, if you’ve read anything I’ve written, you would have seen clearly that I’ve indicated there are a variety of problems.
Do those problems justify the lobbing of verbal Molotovs by people who want to call those members of the Bellevue staff they disagree with “cowards” or “the Mafia”?
“Have you ever thought that we have prayed and prayed and now God has given us permission to stand and not ignore or play as though all is well?”
No one I know of has suggested “all is well.”
And since God is not the author of confusion–no, I wouldn’t for a moment entertain the notion that He has somehow sanctioned an anti-Bellevue slur-fest.
–Mike
http://thebrattonreport.blogspot.com
David
I have been riped of by Jesse also
joanne
wow! Who is this mike fellow with the acid tongue and arrogant knowledge? He’s sure out to crusify some sheep! He’s ready to slay anyone with his tongue that doesn’t agree with his opinion. This mentality is really scarry coming from, I assume, a Bellevue member.
pogopeanut
Bellevue Bob
Mike sounds like one of many Kool-Aid drinkers at Bellevue right now (Their mantra- The pastor is right regardless…if you don’t like it leave! The pastor is right regardless…if you don’t like it leave). Here’s an idea….try applying a little critical thinking to the situation. Let’s stick with the issues of truth and trustworthiness on the part of the ministerial leadership. Baptists typically believe in the scriptural infalibility, not pastoral infalibility. Time will tell if the pastor is telling the truth.
Bellevue Bob
infallibility…sorry for the typos…once again, typing too fast
Mike Bratton
“Acid tongue”?
“Arrogant”?
“Ready to slay”?
“Kool-Aid drinker”?
And I’m the one who’s misbehaving? Heh heh heh…
So, “Bob,” my “mantra” is “The pastor is right, regardless”? Never mind that I have a blog loaded with statements that would contradict such a vapid assertion, I’ve written some things here that contradict it. And I quote myself thusly and like so:
“You attribute motive where you probably shouldn’t. For example, if you’ve read anything I’ve written, you would have seen clearly that I’ve indicated there are a variety of problems.”
“No one I know of has suggested “all is well.—
My comments, here and elsewhere, have been about the issues which have arisen, not about the personalities involved. I must note, “Bob,” that neither “joanne” nor you can say the same about your comments.
Come visit, if you like. You might actually feel the need to retract some of the unfortunate things you’ve written about me.
–Mike
http://thebrattonreport.blogspot.com
Bellevue Bob
No fair using big words, Mike.
Vapid? No. Isipid, innocuous, or jejune- maybe. It reminds me of the abortion debate. Framing the argument by the vocabulary used. Anti-abortion or pro-life: Anti-Bellevue or pro-pastor? How about pro-truth? Again the issue is truth and trustworthiness of the leadership. Let’s suspend judgment until the facts of the matter come to light- and they will. It seems that whatever sin we try to cover, the Lord uncovers.
johnathan
excellent insight bob….
all of this could have been nipped in the bud had it been handled according to scripture but instead it has been handled by sarcasim, arrogance, name calling and what i have detected, a spirit of hate. look at mikes website. it is full of annimosity and hate and no love or kindness or caring it is filled with empty smart-alic remarks
i would love to know what is true and who is the spinner of all this deceit. when i read the letters by ray and by sharp, it is manifest these are true children of GOD with a love for the chruch and a love for its people it comes thru in their words and concern for all the members and for the church and even for those who are involved in this situation all they are asking is for answers and to get everything out in the open and cleared up if this was done months ago, nothing would have festered and perhaps all parties would have been completely cleared of any wrong doing or if there was a “culprit” that lied about steve, they would have been held accountable and matters would have been cleared up
to simply dismiss (i picture it in my mind those 4 men climbing a fence marked “no trespassing”) as a mistake of the mind is more horrifying to me than the act itself my postman handed me my mail the other day and shook his head in disbelief saying, “did your pastor really climb that guys fence?” he just shook his head and drove off. who could make up such a story? what a witness to a lost world! how do you even begin to explain that one?
instead of following scripture to handle all this, all those who have legitimate questions and are above reproach in character, have been maliciously attacked! slandered! why?
this leads us all to some sort of speculation, as to why this is being handled in such a godless way
i’m overwhelmed with the character assinations and strong-armed bullying where is all this coming from but the enemy? since when has it been the unforgivable sin to ask a question about something that appears to be questionable behaviour? we are to have no appearance of evil among us….note appearance of evil let alone evil. these questions deserve an answer and they are coming from men we respect with sterling characters they are not judging anyone, they are just asking
yet we are all horrified, at least i’m horrified, when i read this visicious totally uncalled for slanderous accusations against those who want some answers. it is manifest there is no love for the people, in these attacks, against those who are asking for answers. i cannot believe what a hateful and hurtful attitude there is
there is no credibility for someone who speaks with such hate because it is not from God
it seems like self love is the rule whith those who want to ban and silence the sheep; self righteousness and pride
instead we should be fighting the “not flesh and blood” ememy of the chruch, and not a programed trashing, name calling and viciousness towards the sheep. christians do not act that way! that’s the way of the world, the flesh and the devil, not of true believers
by the way, i agree totally with what you said bob aobut the twisting of the words to make a straw man argument this happens when there is no truth or substance to discuss and i think in this case it comes from someone who is dealing with an inferiority complex. it is a common way to make one feel better about themself but to do it in this fashion against (if he is a believer) his own brothers is tragic
i’ve noticed humility has left the chruch you don’t see it anywhere now days is arrogance the new spirit of bellevue now? you feel it heavily as soon as you walk in the doors
i have utterly no idea what the truth is in this matter i have no clue as to who is right and who is wrong if anyone but i do know i cannot worship at a church where there is this spirit of pride and bullying and hatred i guess we are one of the families that have been destroyed in the cross-fire and from what i’ve heard the administration will be “glad to see us go!” there is no longer any freedom in Christ butit has now become: my way or the highway what a spirit of our enemy prevails!
i know people who have left that are some of the most godly saint alive today there is something wrong when that happens, very wrong
Mike Bratton
Thanks, “johnathan.” Lots of accusations and bomb-throwing, but nothing in the way of specifics.
You, of course, are making declarations regarding who are, and who aren’t, “true believers.” It’s speaking the truth in love to tell you that doing so is un-Scriptural, that you should apologize for it, and that you should never do it again.
And you and “Bob” might have noticed (or not) that I’ve never labeled any viewpoint or group movement “pro-pastor.” Come to think of it, I don’t know of anyone who has employed such terminology.
As soon as I’m confident that it’s all right to do so, I’ll be posting some “pro-Bellevue” statements that might interest you.
–Mike
http://thebrattonreport.blogspot.com
bart
What you folks have is an extremely highly paid public speaker/ceo, not a New Testament shepard of God’s flock. To go along with that you get the arrogance, pride, and greed of the mighty ceo instead of the humble heart of a servant of the Lord. You made a poor choice. I for one couldn’t be more happy that the massive ego is gone from Jug Town (G’dale).